Interviews with me

Tom Jennings is the founder and main developer of FidoNet. FidoNet is a global BBS network launched in 1984 to connect computer users in different regions through telephone lines. Jennings' innovation enabled users to communicate and exchange information across geographies, and FidoNet was an important online communication platform before the Internet became widespread. In 1993, Jon Lebkowsky interviewed Tom Jennings. This interview explores the development history of FidoNet, technological innovation, online culture and the popularity of the Internet at that time. The Nexus has obtained the authorization from Mr. Jon Lebkowsky to translate this interview into Chinese and publish it.

In 1993, after a conversation with Jon Lebkowsky , Tom Jennings asked: " Can you mention somewhere that I am a gay, anarchist, nerd, troublemaker and activist?" It’s important to me that this is information that a lot of people want to know, especially people who are afraid and don’t understand that gay people can be okay in some ways.”

Tom Jennings: Although I don’t know much about this “tracking and positioning technology”, it sounds like it gives me chills! I don't want a device monitoring my whereabouts and reporting my location to some local machine when I walk in the door. It doesn't matter to anyone where I am! This is the intrusion of technology companies into real life, just like the 1% who pocket all the wealth and think everyone will live like them.

Jon Lebkowsky: It's like being in an ivory tower. Over time, you may develop an illusion that this closed environment is the only real world.

Tom Jennings: Yes, that's the reality, but it's local. They know everyone like you said - Of course, they can't know everyone.

Jon Lebkowsky: I interviewed Allucquére Rosanne Stone¹ some time ago, and she mentioned ubiquitous computing - computers will become invisible and become ubiquitous...

Tom Jennings: As Alan Kay² pointed out many years ago, when technology is used properly, you don’t even notice it’s there. It's like walking into a room and subconsciously flipping a switch - do you think too much about that "stupid" light switch? Obviously not, the light comes on, it's that simple. And telephony is moving in that direction.

Jon Lebkowsky: What’s even more amazing is that as soon as you walk into some rooms, the lights will automatically turn on because there are sensors inside.

Tom Jennings: When it comes to FidoNet, I naturally have a different view. After all, I am its designer. FidoNet will celebrate its tenth anniversary in February or March 1994. It is a unique network composed of BBS distributed around the world. It is also a loose alliance, completely decentralized and without any top-level control. However, due to long-term living in a real environment that advocates hierarchy, most members have a relatively narrow understanding of FidoNet. BBS (Bulletin Board System) is the most basic component of FidoNet. FidoNet is essentially a set of protocols that allow these BBSs to communicate with each other. At first, it just consisted of a few BBSs running the Fido software I developed, and later the FidoNet system was added to enable peer-to-peer email communication between each other.

Tom Jennings: It all starts with my system. I was writing software at Phoenix Software, now Phoenix Technologies, and was their first employee. Before they introduced the ROM BIOS⁴, I was responsible for all MS-DOS⁵ system ports. Some of this work also draws on my previous experience with portable MS-DOS. We installed MS-DOS in three days and charged a hefty fee, but the product we delivered was excellent, value for money, and incredibly fast! We've gotten portable systems to the point where they're perfect. So I took a portable attitude towards hardware and wrote a BBS based on that.

To me, the more important feature of FidoNet is the social mechanism. From the beginning, it was clear that it would become a social behemoth whose influence would even transcend the technology itself. This is closely related to the environment in which early BBSs existed: when I first started developing Fido, BBSs had already existed for a long time. At that time, each bulletin board had a different style and was run by eccentric managers according to their own ideas. Therefore, FidoNet must adapt to this diverse environment to survive and develop.

Tom Jennings: Yeah, totally anarchist. In most cases, each system is operated by its own administrator for personal purposes and is far apart from each other, so they only serve local user groups. Recently, I revisited some old interviews and documents from 1983-1984 and discovered that we discussed this issue at that time. It's just that people hear it in one ear and out the other, and they don't hear it at all. Their impression of "anarchism" still rests on the stereotype of throwing stones at the police. Maybe it happens occasionally, but mostly it's just the police's definition of the word.

Jon Lebkowsky: I think bomb-throwing anarchists are always associated with political unrest...

Tom Jennings: Take the crackdown on unions in San Francisco in the 1920s. There was also "false accusation" - at that time there was a man named Tom Mooney. Someone deliberately planted a bomb on him to frame him, threw him into prison, and framed all the charges on anarchists.

Jon Lebkowsky: Anarchism has kind of a negative connotation now, but essentially it's not that different from the ideals that many people want to embrace now. I think liberal philosophy is a more anarchist thought, and this kind of thought is very common on the Internet. It's basically a "hands-off" philosophy.

Tom Jennings: I think people often take anarchism too seriously, and some anarchist factions have more discipline than other groups. In my opinion, anarchism is a personal philosophy and not a political issue at all. It has nothing to do with party politics.

Tom Jennings: Yeah, pretty much. I don't care so much about so-called political issues, I care more about personal interactions, how I treat others, how they treat me, and my relationships with others. This is anarchism—I always call it Paul Goodman⁶anarchism. Its core principle is that people work better together when they cooperate rather than when they are forced. It's very simple and has nothing to do with those damn partisan politics and everything to do with how you treat the people you work with. FidoNet operates on this very clear principle. Under this principle, bulletin boards in FidoNet enable communication in a simple and direct peer-to-peer manner.

Tom Jennings: Yeah, it was just Fido at the time, because it only required minor adjustments to the internal structure and the messaging library and so on. FidoNet has always performed well as a bulletin board system, but now it is clearly outdated. I haven't updated FidoNet in over two years.

Tom Jennings: No, I'm considering giving it up. I once thought it was time to end Fido. Fido started in the spring of 1984 with just two systems (me and my friend John Madill) but grew to 20 systems within four months and to 50 by the end of the year. By February of the following year, in just nine months, the number of systems had grown rapidly to nearly 100. Each system is run by an independent administrator for its own purposes, so FidoNet needs to be able to accommodate this diversity. However, this is not unusual, and the Internet works in a similar way: there is no central authority, anyone can connect their system to the Internet, just find someone willing to help, and then ask the NIC ( Network Information Center, Network Information Center) to register.

Tom Jennings: Yeah, it's true, unless you technically screw up, or seriously break the law, you can't get kicked out. The most common reasons are probably technical, such as not responding to emails for a long time. This is true of most electronic communication systems. It was not until the emergence of Echomail that FidoNet's development truly entered a stage of rapid growth. Developed by a guy named Jeff Rush in Dallas, Echomail was originally a communication tool used by Dallas system administrators to organize pizza dinners. Echomail uses a fully distributed, redundant database architecture and uses FidoNet webmail to transfer data. Its functions are similar to the Usenet news system, and the interoperability between the two is also very convenient.

Tom Jennings: There is a gateway between FidoNet and UUCP, you just need to set up the UFGate package. FidoNet and the Internet work very differently. IP protocols, also known as Internet protocols, always stay connected. If you want to connect to a system in Finland, you just send packets and they usually come back in less than a second. FidoNet uses a store-and-forward, offline processing model.

Jon Lebkowsky: A lot of people are talking about encryption technology right now. Are you involved?

Tom Jennings: Right. FidoNet played an important role in the initial promotion of PGP: to ensure that PGP spread, FidoNet quickly distributed about 10,000 copies in a week, and PGP spread quickly. There's all kinds of debate now about whether using PGP is legal, or whether it could get me criminalized, and the network traffic it generates itself.

Tom Jennings: Yes. Some people worry that sending or transmitting encrypted data could lead to investigation by law enforcement or even the seizure of their computers. FidoNet suddenly went from being unknown to being part of the computer world, and it had a completely different development history than the Internet. Most Internet users get their Internet connection through school or work, where they grow and become part of an Internet community.

Tom Jennings: Yes, it is, and the changes will continue. One day, this situation will become difficult to understand, but for now, this is the status quo. FidoNet did not originate in the Internet community. Its founding members were a bunch of guys with computers who were computer enthusiasts just like the early radio and astronomy enthusiasts. FidoNet is a true hobbyist network. It is not professional, as the word "professional" is often used to mean "legitimate," as opposed to "amateur."

Tom Jennings: Yes, the word "amateur" later became pejorative, but we actually use it in its earlier meaning, like those early radio amateurs. FidoNet was not created for profit, but as a hobby. As a result, most FidoNet members have never had a traditional Internet connection and are not bound by corporate and computer network culture. FidoNet's development has been marked by independence and spontaneity. 550 cultures

Jon Lebkowsky: Speaking of "culture", do you think there is a specific cultural tendency in the world of FidoNet? Are there any specific groups or communities of people who use FidoNet?

Tom Jennings: Like any topic involving cultural discussion, the answer depends on one's subjective feelings. However, I do experience a very different vibe on the Internet and on FidoNet. From a cultural perspective, there is no difference between the two. Those Internet users will say: "Oh my God, the name war on FidoNet is terrible." That's bullshit! The scolding wars on the Internet are just as fierce, but they use more formal language, five-element signature files, and whatnot. But honestly, there's no real difference, it's just a different style. For Internet users, the atmosphere on the Internet is more friendly and comfortable. Likewise, FidoNet users are more accustomed to the FidoNet atmosphere, with their familiar language, abbreviations, and emoticons, all of which make them feel at home.

Through some common sociological phenomena, FidoNet also shows its own unique cultural atmosphere. People who initially join FidoNet define this vague common denominator, while those who join later may choose to join specific communities based on their preferences ("Oh, I love this!") and reinforce the vibe, or they may remain neutral. , and you will naturally absorb this atmosphere after joining. Just like when you start hanging out with a group of people and gradually learn how they speak. Of course, there are some people who are completely resistant to this atmosphere and want FidoNet to become more professional, and some people just don't care and just stay in their own corner.

FidoNet and the Internet do have something in common, but I can’t tell what they are at the moment. The FidoNet community exhibits a fierce and absolute independence. It is firmly opposed to commercialization. FidoNet's history has been one of intense political battles and very intelligent political discussions. Overall, I think FidoNet users tend to have a more pragmatic perspective and have better (and more useful in today's world) insights than someone who has never had to pay their own phone bill.

Jon Lebkowsky: There is an ongoing debate about the viability of online communities. Some argue that purely online communities cannot sustain and that face-to-face interaction is needed to create real connections. Indeed, when the Internet first emerged, online communication between people was relatively limited because the Internet was not widespread. However, as the Internet gradually enters public life...

Tom Jennings: For a lot of people, full access to the internet is still not available. You need to own a lot of hardware, or be close to the people who own it, such as going to a school that provides Internet access... otherwise you have to spend money, and there are always a lot of people who can't afford it.

Tom Jennings: Yes, there is, but the quantity is very limited. Even in the United States, there are very few public network terminals that the average person can easily use (I would be very surprised if there were more than 100 terminals that the average person can easily use). This still requires a lot of expertise.

Tom Jennings: Yes, my hacking career spans fifteen or even twenty years, from SWTP, CP/M, DOS systems to hardware. But even so, I still find UNIX daunting and very difficult to use. A lot of users have a macho attitude: "Well, you should do your own research, that's how I got here." This condescending attitude is downright stupid. Whether online culture can be formed has nothing to do with technical thresholds. It will only happen naturally or not. I think online communities do exist, and people who participate in them don't bother with questions like "Do we count as an online community?" They just do what they want to do. These online communities are often difficult to define in advance, and we can only look back afterwards and say: "Oh, those people count as an online community" or "Not really, they didn't unite at the critical moment."

Jon Lebkowsky: At EFF-Austin⁸, we consciously promote community building. We are trying to build an online community in Austin and integrate resources to jointly promote some projects. What makes us different from other EFF branches is that we run art projects. Through these projects, I realized that many writers and artists are eager to join the online world. They know that the network exists and want to participate in it, but they have no way to do it unless they happen to encounter a system that is willing to provide an account. This is very similar to the “technical barrier” you mentioned earlier. But I want to know, have you seen writers and artists sharing information and forming artistic communities in the FidoNet world?

Tom Jennings: FidoNet really appealed to a lot of non-technical people because you could assemble a system for $300, plug a phone cord into a phone jack and go. This greatly lowers the barrier to entry and makes it very practical. It's a bit slower, but for most people, it won't matter.

Jon Lebkowsky: Is FidoNet just for sending email? Are there any other features? Like file transfer?

Tom Jennings: Yeah, there's a lot of file transfer capabilities as well. From a user's perspective, FidoNet is more complex than FTP in some ways. It has a unique file distribution network - SDN (Software Distribution Network). You can think of it as a file conference, where the object of transmission is not information, but files. These files will be stored in a redundant manner, with some stored locally and some scattered elsewhere. Like most networks, this approach is somewhat nebulous. Every month, FidoNet publishes a new file announcement, listing all new files, most of which are free or shareware. Users can easily browse announcements, find the files they need, and send them to others with messages via the attachment feature, or get files from other users via the file request feature.

FidoNet is not like many older networks that always have problems because they are limited to 7-bit channels. We use an 8-bit channel with a 32-bit CRC check. However, we do encounter some system compatibility issues, such as the differences between common ASCII characters and Cyrillic letters. These problems also exist on other systems, and they are quite troublesome to deal with.

Tom Jennings: Without remote login, the systems in FidoNet are very diverse and include a wide variety of hardware devices. From Radio Shack color computers ⁹ , CP/M ¹ ⁰ machines, and Apple IIs to huge DOS machines and UNIX LANs, FidoNet connects them all through a common set of protocols and supports far more hardware platforms than most systems (even is UNIX); FidoNet does not have a unified operating system, but uses a set of protocols that are compatible with 40 to 50 different mail programs and interfaces between FidoNet and multiple BBSs (they look completely different). In other words, the underlying workings of FidoNet are much more abstract than often understood. I bet that UNIX systems must account for a large part of the Internet, maybe even the vast majority!

Jon Lebkowsky: To achieve widespread interoperability like the Internet, surely there needs to be some kind of standard?

Tom Jennings: No, the key to true compatibility lies in the TCP/IP layer. TCP/IP is like the universal language of the networked world, the foundation common to all systems. rlogin, telnet, ftp, etc. are more like user habits and operating methods based on TCP/IP, rather than just a set of protocols. While these protocols are great to use and I like them, they do limit the style of the system.

[At this point, Ed Cavazos, associate attorney and vice president of EFF-Austin, appeared and sat down to listen. The conversation continues. 】

Tom Jennings: FidoNet is so different from other networks that it's hard for people to understand how it works. This is not a coincidence, but a deliberate decision by FidoNet to differentiate itself from other networks. Some of FidoNet's basic rules may seem arbitrary, but they are by design. These rules have long been recorded in black and white in relevant policy documents and have stood the test of seven years. FidoNet adheres strictly to American anarchist principles and is reflected in policy documents.

Between 1985 and 1987, FidoNet experienced a turmoil internally. An organization called IFNA (The International FidoNet Association) tried to control the entire network. It was like a cancer growing from within and finally surfaced. The original intention of establishing IFNA may have been good. After all, FidoNet only had 200 nodes at that time, and the size was like a club. The user group was relatively simple, with 90% being white American male computer enthusiasts. However, by the time the network grew to 500 nodes and the IFNA program began, the FidoNet world had changed dramatically. 500 nodes means that FidoNet is no longer limited to the United States. At that time, the proportion of European users was close to 20%, and showed a significant growth trend. At the same time, some systems also appeared in South America. Like a snowball, these scattered systems began to grow.

We naively believed that the establishment of IFNA would push FidoNet to new heights. However, one of us soon realized that this simply wasn’t going to work! However, IFNA continued to develop and even became a non-profit organization, which attempted to gain power and benefits by controlling FidoNet. In the face of IFNA's brutal invasion, the members of FidoNet did not retreat, but bravely united to defend FidoNet's freedom and openness. Although IFNA briefly controlled FidoNet's copyright and trademark, they were eventually defeated. FidoNet not only did not die as everyone expected, but also ushered in more vigorous development.

Tom Jennings: It was the normal operations of going through lawyers, authorizing votes, etc., all in a hotel in San Jose.

Tom Jennings: It was started by a group of us. At the beginning, we brainstormed some things we could do: like offering discounts on modems, etc. We also want to send a FidoNet representative to attend the EMA ¹ ¹ conference every year to speak on behalf of BBS system administrators and FidoNet members to discuss important issues such as electronic privacy and technology trade. The needs are still there and we need people to do them. However, FidoNet established a principle from early on: everyone not only has control of their own system, but also has the responsibility to participate in the operation, because no one else will manage it for you. This sounds simple, but it is very difficult for everyone to truly understand and take action, because there are always some people who just want to sit back and enjoy the benefits. This situation is very common, and it is the same in FidoNet. Usually 10% of the people do 90% of the work, and of course, there is nothing wrong with that.

Tom Jennings: Compared with the Internet, FidoNet is a bit different. The Internet has a domain name system. When you want to "connect to toad.com," it tells you ".com, okay, it's over there, toad -- here's the address," and then you can connect. FidoNet has a seemingly centrally managed database, and each system in the network has a copy of the database. The current ASCII database is 2 MB and contains 20,000 records. The database is updated weekly and contains complete physical and logical information about the entire network, including phone numbers, system names, usage restrictions, supported protocols, and some ASCII text such as system names, cities, and more. This database also contains FidoNet's hierarchical addressing scheme and has a large amount of redundant information.

Jon Lebkowsky: Since there is no central authority, who is going to maintain this database?

Tom Jennings: Within FidoNet, there is a local autonomous unit responsible for maintaining the database. However, before introducing it, let's first sort out the terminology of FidoNet: point, node, net (network) and zone (area). In fact, peers are not part of FidoNet, they are special existences; nodes are the basic unit of FidoNet, which can be a BBS or a site only for mail, usually identified by a phone number with a modem; the network consists of a group of FidoNet Node composition, such as San Francisco's Net 125 (SFBay Net), consists of approximately 75 to 80 nodes. Nodes in the network are the most basic social organizational units of FidoNet. To make it easier to understand, we designed each FidoNet network to be small enough to resemble organizations such as clubs that people know and love. As networks scale, they will naturally fragment into network segments, form autonomous units, and integrate into regions based on real-world geography.

The telephone system in North America is very different from that in Western Europe. North American users are not sensitive to political boundary divisions: for example, "Zone 1" covers Mexico, the United States, and Canada. No one objects to this, and everyone takes it for granted. But in Europe, people defend their political borders fiercely (which is really stupid). FidoNet's autonomous mechanism is one of the important factors in its success. Who would want to let the people of New Jersey dictate how they operate their system? Any form of central control invites resistance, and fighting for control wastes a lot of time and energy.

The generation of FidoNet node lists is also interesting: specifically, each network segment generates its own node list (a simple task), these node lists are passed by the regional coordinators, and each one receives the others' A copy of the weekly report list and compile a complete list of regional nodes. They then compare the differences between this week and last week and return those changes to the network. This collaborative approach is so robust that FidoNet can recover itself even if half of the network suffers a critical failure. This is a true terror balance¹² – a balance between responsibility and power. The benefit of this redundancy mechanism is that no one can kick you out of the network or restrict your communication rights.

In the world of UUCP, this does not happen, because its social environment is much more important. UUCP participants are usually large institutions, such as universities, Hewlett-Packard Company, etc. In theory, they can remove a node from the connection path. Once removed, the node will no longer exist and other nodes will no longer be able to communicate with it. It's that simple!

But FidoNet is different. Recently in the UK, a group of religious fundamentalists took control of much of the UK FidoNet through constant pressure. Then suddenly they started going crazy: "Why are there perverts on FidoNet? We don't allow them here!" Then they removed some nodes from the UK node list. One will notice that these nodes disappear. But these deleted nodes can still communicate with other nodes. Not only can they send message snippets, but they can also generate messages manually. And all node list handlers are allowed to receive private lists, and they can also reply to messages. In short, no one can be removed from this network.

If you think about it carefully, this decentralized management method actually has advantages and disadvantages. For example, on FidoNet, if you encounter an extremely annoying troublemaker, there is nothing you can do about him. Just like in real public places, it is difficult to expel people unless they use extreme measures (such as pulling out a gun). Sure, it might be relatively easy in a controlled environment like a hotel, but on the street, you can only live in peace with your neighbors. The same goes for FidoNet, you have to learn to tolerate them and vice versa. Those who like to cause trouble must also restrain themselves, otherwise they will be severely condemned. But usually, people just ignore them.

There was a guy at the time who was also a Christian fundamentalist fanatic. But he is actually quite interesting. He firmly believes that he understands the true meaning of the Bible, and always preaches some weird doomsday prophecies. He was sending emails to people everywhere, pages and pages of nonsense. Fortunately, there is an email filtering program, and you can set it to block emails from specific addresses, so that you can avoid being harassed by his spam.

Tom Jennings: Yes, it is equivalent to bozo filter. FidoNet has had this program for a long time. There is another method called "bounce". As long as you receive an email from that guy, use the "bounce" function to bounce it back, and a text will be automatically added that says "This email was rejected by a certain site and will be returned to you." This approach is quite irritating. But at the end of the day, people are social creatures, even those Internet trolls. We all don’t want to be disliked by too many people. Even if others don’t agree with our views, we at least want someone to listen to us. So that's the basis of FidoNet.

FidoNet has always been technologically flexible, and whenever new technological changes or opportunities emerged, the FidoNet network responded quickly and within a year had half of the network supporting these new technologies. Around 1985, USR Company¹⁴ keenly discovered the potential of BBS. They realized that although there were still very few system administrators operating BBS, for users who wanted to go to BBS, whose opinions would they refer to when choosing hardware? Woolen cloth? Administrator of course. Users will ask, "What modem are you using? Since you're using it, it must be good!" Because if the device doesn't work, the administrator will have hundreds or thousands of users complaining.

In order to capture the huge market of FidoNet user groups, USR adopted a very smart strategy. They asked FidoNet users directly: "What features would you like to see in a new modem?" The first modem launched by USR to address the needs of FidoNet users was the "USR Courier 2400." This product was expensive at the time, with a new machine selling for $600 to $700. However, USR has launched a half-price discount for FidoNet user groups, bringing the price down to about $300 to $400, which is a very good deal. FidoNet users needed a symmetrical modem that truly supported flow control and was compatible with the basic AT command set. USR seized this opportunity and improved the product to meet the needs of FidoNet users, with great success. Later, USR Company launched another modem "HST". The product angered many in the industry because it used a clumsy asymmetric proprietary protocol - one side was capable of 9600 baud and the other was only 300 baud. USR approached us again, and we made more improvements to the handshake process and began adjusting the FidoNet protocol to better suit the new device.

FidoNet initially adopted the XMODEM protocol for data transmission, which is very similar to the X.25 packet acknowledgment¹⁵ and a bit like the Kermit protocol, but is much more efficient than Kermit. It is also somewhat similar to the UUCP-G protocol, but UUCP-G uses a windowed transmission mode, while XMODEM uses a block-by-block confirmation method, that is, a confirmation is performed after each data block is transmitted, and then the next data block is transmitted. This method performs well at and below 2400 baud, but efficiency drops above 2400 baud. The asymmetric modems used at the time were prone to crashing in this situation. To solve this problem, a new protocol called Wazoo came into being. The Wazoo protocol quickly became popular because it enabled protocol negotiation at the beginning of the session and optionally used the ZMODEM protocol (developed by Chuck Forseberg). The ZMODEM protocol supports full-window transmission, and the transmission speed is very fast, even without confirmation. Therefore, the Wazoo protocol can fully exploit the performance of the HST modem, while other protocols cannot. In other words, HST modems are useless for existing protocols. So, from a technical perspective, FidoNet has always been very flexible.

Ed Cavazos: Are you familiar with John Quarterman? Have you seen the FidoNet map he drew?

Tom Jennings: No, I haven't seen his map of the FidoNet network (but John Quarterman showed his map at a later conference). He and I occasionally communicate, and Iforwarded one of his articles on FidoNews some time ago. FidoNews itself is a very magical existence. This newsletter with a weekly circulation of 20,000 has been going on for ten years, but it always seems to be ignored by the outside world. FidoNet is now facing serious trust issues because it broke away from the framework of traditional computer networks when it was born, and it can actually run on PCs and Radio Shack color computers (in fact, the performance of the 6809 processor of the Radio Shack color computer is very good , can run OS9 system. OS9 is an amazing software, with which you can run a multi-user system on a $99 pre-installed computer system!

When FidoNews first started in 1984, its positioning was as a "meta-net", with the purpose of exploring the network itself and its social impact. However, the first issue of FidoNews published an article by a retired Air Force colonel complaining about the military's retirement process. This immediately caused dissatisfaction among many users. They all said: "This is FidoNet! FidoNews is technology news!" I retorted at the time: "Fuck you, FidoNews is not what you said! Talk about this all day long. Who can stand technical things? When you talk on the phone, do you keep talking about the phone itself? "Look, my new phone is great, it's all buttons!" "Aren't you bored after just a few words of conversation? It's like radio amateurs always showing off their antennas. Who wants to listen to this!

Jon Lebkowsky: We've been discussing this issue recently. Now three or four magazines have begun to pay attention to the Internet field and focus on online culture. For example, Wired (Wired Magazine), Mondo and bOING bOING , of course, their styles are completely different. We found that many articles only focus on the carrier of information, that is, the technology itself for transmitting information, while there is little discussion of information content and the developing network culture.

Tom Jennings: Yes, many people seem to have forgotten that the network technology we create is essentially just a pipeline for transmitting information, a medium, not the content itself! Content will emerge with technology. Because these are all new media, they are still in the development stage, and various problems will arise and need to be continuously improved. All software has bugs, all hardware has problems, that's why we talk about these technologies so often, but that's not the point.

Jon Lebkowsky: What’s really interesting is what’s on both ends of the pipeline…

Tom Jennings: Yeah, the phone call proved that. Phones don't just convey information, they convey social signals and emotions, and that's why they're successful - you can talk through them. But what about the keyboard? How many ways of saying “no” can you say using your keyboard? Even if you're super smart, you might just come up with 25 or 50, plus a few emojis and capital letters, but in the process all cultural information is lost. More importantly, the Internet is not yet popular, and there is still a "threshold" for accessing the Internet. Only expensive computers can be used to obtain a complete Internet experience, which invisibly excludes many people from the online world.

Tom Jennings: Yeah, I've always been skeptical about large-scale networks. Although I also use the Internet now, I don't think this represents the arrival of "world connection". In fact, the proportion of the population that is actually connected to the Internet is minuscule, less than one percent of one percent, and existing network tools have many shortcomings. This is not directed at web developers, who have contributed greatly to the development of the Internet and whose work is laying the foundation for the future of the world. However, these networks remain out of reach for most of the world's population.

Jon Lebkowsky: Yeah, initially I had to pay to connect to the Internet. For example, The WELL¹⁷…

Tom Jennings: The fact that I have access to the Internet is a perk of my job. I currently manage a small IP partnership and make around $400 to $500 a year, but basically do it full time.

Jon Lebkowsky: I actually got other accounts after that. Because I'm not very tech savvy, when I first started, I could only access the Internet through paid methods. My interests are more in the socio-political aspect…

Tom Jennings: I don’t have a big problem with the status quo. Judging from the limited history of the West, this is how all complex things develop, whether good or bad, and require an investment of resources, energy and time before they eventually become popular. In the process, they are also constantly defined and incorporate some basic cultural assumptions from the beginning.

Tom Jennings: Let's wait and see whether the Internet can become as ubiquitous as the telephone. After all, the telephone’s place in society is unparalleled, and it’s hard to imagine a better communication tool. As Bruce Sterling¹⁸ said in his book The Hacker Crackdown : It’s only when you don’t have a phone that you realize its importance. The phone is as common as a light switch that we have become so accustomed to its presence that we don’t even think about it. It’s not an exciting piece of technology, but it’s an integral part of our daily lives.

Jon Lebkowsky: I remember when there was only one phone in the house, and getting a second phone was a big deal, and it usually had to be a shared line. Now, I have three phone lines at home, one of which is a dedicated data line. I think most people I know have at least two or three phones at home.

Tom Jennings: I only use two lines now, which is incredible when you think about it - the most I used was six! Various BBS and data lines, now only one voice line and one data line are needed.

Jon Lebkowsky: I prefer asynchronous text communication. I can’t say why I like it. Maybe it’s just my personal preference. I think it's quite interesting, because on WELL, whenever we encounter problems and can't figure out the communication ideas, the support staff Matisse Enzer will always say: "How about I call you and let's talk." And I Always the answer: “No, wait, I don’t want to call, I just want to communicate via text!”

Allucquére Rosanne “Sandy” Stone is an American scholar, theorist, writer, and performance artist who is considered one of the founders of the discipline of transgender studies. Born in 1936, she has extensive experience in a variety of fields, including film, music, experimental neurology, writing, engineering, and computer programming.

Alan Kay is a famous American computer scientist known for his pioneering work in object-oriented programming and graphical user interfaces (GUIs). He was one of the primary developers of the Smalltalk programming language and participated in many important computer science research at Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). Kay also came up with the concept of the "Dynabook," which became the precursor to modern laptops and tablets. His innovations and ideas had a profound impact on the development of computer science.

ACK stands for "Acknowledgment", which means "confirmation". ACK is an acknowledgment mechanism in data communications, often used in network protocols to indicate acknowledgment of received data packets.

BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) is a type of firmware built into the computer's motherboard. It is the first program that runs when the computer starts and is responsible for initializing and testing hardware components such as memory, hard drive, keyboard, and monitor. BIOS also provides a basic set of input and output interfaces for use by the operating system and applications.

MS-DOS is the abbreviation of Microsoft Disk Operating System, which means the disk operating system provided by Microsoft Corporation of the United States. It is one of the most commonly used disk operating systems in personal computers.

Paul Goodman (1911-1972) was a well-known American social critic and writer, mainly known for his social criticism works in the 1960s. His work covers literature, art, civil rights, decentralization, democracy, education, media, politics, psychology, technology, urban planning, and war. Goodman focuses on individual responsibilities and autonomous actions in society, emphasizing that individuals should exercise autonomy, develop creativity, and realize their own humanity.

--BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK--Is the starting mark of the public key block of the PGP encryption software. PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) encryption is an encryption technology used to protect emails and files. It combines symmetric key encryption and public key encryption to ensure that only authorized recipients can decrypt information by generating public and private key pairs.

EFF-Austin is the Austin, Texas chapter of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. The organization works to defend digital rights and protect digital information, innovation and technology. They advocate for the right of all citizens to communicate and share information without unreasonable restrictions, and uphold people's freedom to explore and use new technologies.

Radio Shack Color Computer (CoCo) is a series of home computers launched by Tandy Corporation (Radio Shack's parent company) in the 1980s. They were based on the 6809 microprocessor and supported color graphics displays and a variety of programming languages, including BASIC. The CoCo series became one of the most popular computers in the home and education markets at the time due to its relatively low price and programmability.

CP/M, the full name is Control Program for Microcomputers, which means microcomputer control program. It is a disk operating system specially designed for 8-bit microprocessors (such as Intel 8080, Zilog Z80, etc.). It was developed by Gary Kildall in 1974 and played an important role in the early development of personal computers.

The Electronic Messaging Association (EMA) is a cross-industry forum dedicated to the promotion, development and use of electronic messaging technologies such as email (e-mail), voice mail, fax, electronic data interchange (EDI), and Other messaging technologies for secure global e-commerce.

The balance of terror is a theoretical concept in international relations that refers to the maintenance of peace and stability through mutual deterrence of terrorist weapons.

Bozo filter refers to a filter on an online social or communication platform that is used to block or hide content or speakers that users consider disturbing or meaningless.

URS (USRobotics) is an American company founded in 1976, focusing on the production and sales of modems and network equipment. The company was particularly well-known in the 1980s and 1990s for its modem products that were widely used in personal computers and Internet connections.

In the X.25 protocol, a packet acknowledgment (ACK) is a control packet used to confirm the successful reception of a data packet. It is a key mechanism to ensure reliable data transmission on X.25 networks.

Marshall McLuhan (1911-1980) was a Canadian scholar, communication theorist, and media philosopher, considered one of the most influential thinkers of the 20th century. He is known for his unique research on the impact of media and technology, proposing many profound ideas such as "the medium is the message", the "global village" and other concepts. McLuhanites usually refer to those scholars, researchers or followers who are deeply influenced by McLuhan's ideas and study and advocate his theories. These individuals typically work to understand and apply McLuhan's media theory, exploring the impact of media technologies on individuals, society, and culture.

The WELL (Whole Earth'Lectronic Link) was founded in 1985 by Stewart Brand and Larry Brilliant. It is an early online social platform dedicated to discussing technology, environment, art and social issues. The WELL is known for its open and in-depth discussions, attracting many well-known writers, scientists and artists to participate, becoming one of the important milestones in the development of online culture and virtual communities.

Bruce Sterling is a renowned science fiction author and critic known for his predictions about future technology and social impacts. His book The Hacker Crackdown: Law and Disorder on the Electronic Frontier explores the U.S. crackdown on computer hacking in the early 1990s. This book details the cyber culture, technocrime, and government responses to cybersecurity issues of the time, revealing the challenges to personal privacy and freedom in the early days of the Information Age.

Thanks to Jon Lebkowsky for authorizing The Nexus to translate and publish this interview.

Jon Lebkowsky is an internet activist, author, and consultant known for his work in digital culture and online communities. He is the co-founder of EFF-Austin. Lebkowsky was also involved in the early development of internet culture and was an active member and influencer of The WELL community. His work includes writing and editing articles on technology, society and culture, and helping to organize and promote the building and development of online communities. He is currently the co-founder, co-host and editor of Plutopia News Network. Plutopia News Network is a free-spirited independent media organization co-founded by him and Scoop Sweeney. The site is known for its in-depth coverage of technology, culture and social issues, attracting loyal readers from around the world. His personal website: https://weblogsky.com/

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